Continued from Thread:4314.
Ok, how about this:
I've fixed the Soviet ex-states and N/S Korean nations existing. The Kingdom of Zemneria has been moved to be more realistic is proportion to where Russia was active, and the Siberian union has also become a nation (as the Russians weren't around to take it from the natives.)
So here's some of the history:
If I may, Maj, why would there be another People's Republic? I mean, one of the main reasons the People's Republic happened was because the Republic of China failed, and one of the main reasons for China becoming a democracy in the first place was the spread of European ideals. Correct me if I'm getting my facts wrong, but I think it's safe to say that if the Qing Dynasty does come to an end before AM's present day, there would simply be another dynasty.
There's a lot more stuff to reply to, I know, but I haven't really got time at the moment. I'll tackle it tomorrow.
China was never a democracy to my knowledge, it was under imperial rule until it became a republic, right? Either way, I suppose you're right, though I wonder what dynasty would come to power...
A democracy did exist, and still does, in China. And it's possible that the Hongxian Dynasty would've ended up in control, but I'd recommend you make up a dynasty. Look up historical figures and events from the time period.
You do realize that a Republic is not a Democracy, right?
………um.
(Goes into corner and repeatedly bashes head against wall)
Mr.Robbo wrote: "Mosiac world". I like it! Perhaps that will be the final name of the universe, if we decide not to use Atra Mors? I can't decide whether the Incans would colonise Africa or not; would it be 'too European', something you have been so careful to avoid up until now? Nevertheless, interaction between continents is good, because it means the world isn't 'compartmentalised' as if they had no contact with each other. If the Incans followed the ocean currents, they would probably reach South Africa; I guess what we need to do is work out by what year the Incans would spread to Patagonia, develop advanced sailing and cross the Atlantic, then see what they would find in Africa by that time.
Good ideas. Should I develop a map of the Inca in South America first?
Mr.Robbo wrote: Technological progression would be by no means even. Both the Islamic nations and China were at the forefront of technology for much of their existences, while the lifestyles of other cultures hadn't changed for thousands of years. Also, leaps, revolutions and renaissances aren't solely European affairs; other places can have them, too.
OK, I'm a bit confused by this. Earlier, you were saying technology would be less advanced because the Renaissance and technological revolutions never happened, and now you're saying they happened anyway? And I know technological progression would be uneven, but saying Islamic nations and China were at the forefront of technology seems to defeat that statement. Actually, I've noted you seem to be repeatedly switching between different paradigms regarding this universe. Am I just misreading you?
Mr.Robbo wrote: Majoras: Remember that the modern day for the alternate history is AD2350, which is still hundreds of years after Europeans started getting substantially involved in Asian affairs. This leaves plenty of time for divergence. Anyway, didn't we say that Russia would have been victim of Yersinia Pestis Atra as well?
At the time, Russia was pretty much a European nation and east of the Urals was territory of various Siberian peoples.
Mr.Robbo wrote: All: What do you think? Does the Australia map need a rethink, as per some of the problems pointed out by TheReturnOfTheKing?
I thought you'd defeated all my points regarding the Australia map? Indeed, what were the points I made? To be specific, which ones are you referring to?
More replies forthcoming.
Majoras:
Nevertheless, there are problems with the Asia map, primarily caused by god syndrome. It seems to me that you have a certain outcome in mind, and are deliberately steering history to follow that path, rather than following the consequences of the wipeout of Europe to a plausible alternate history. The fact that you have a West Asian Union, but don't yet know what empire it originated from, shows that you are working backwards, not forwards. I also think it would be better to start with a blank map of Asia, rather than a modern real world map, as it appears you have done.
Even if there are reasons behind the map, I kind of feel it misses out on some distinctive peoples and cultures that we don't see on real world maps, such as the Tibetans, Persians or Uyghurs. However, those kinds of decisions are to your discretion, as I'm sure you will know Asian history better than I do.
I'm just saying because I thought it would be better to say what my base problems with the map are, rather than just keep criticising it, which I'm sure would get annoying.
"Good ideas. Should I develop a map of the Inca in South America first?"
It's your choice; whatever you're most comfortable with.
"Earlier, you were saying technology would be less advanced because the Renaissance and technological revolutions never happened, and now you're saying they happened anyway?"
Technology would be slower to develop because the European technological revolutions would not take place. As other nations did not have their own revolutions independently of Europe, and eventually had to 'catch up' with the rest of the world by importing Western technologies, it seems that they are less likely to have technological revolutions with as much impact as the European ones. However, this does not preclude them from having their own revolutions as a consequence of the knock-on effects of Europe being wiped out, but, as I said before, it would seem that these would be less likely and have less impact, amounting in slower overall technological advancement.
For example (these are not suggestions, just examples), the Ottoman Empire might have some sort of technological revolution as part of the economic boost from colonising Europe, but the Ottoman Empire at the time did not have all of the prerequisites that led up to the Renaissance in Italy or the Industrial Revolution in Britain, so such a revolution would have less of an impact. Because of the different technological, political and social background, they would also be of a different nature from these European revolutions, and have different consequences.
"And I know technological progression would be uneven, but saying Islamic nations and China were at the forefront of technology seems to defeat that statement."
I said they were at the forefront of technology for much of their existences. In the real world they fell behind for various (mainly internal) reasons and were eventually overtaken technologically by Europe. It's sometimes said that, if you look at the world in AD1500, with medieval Europe fragmented into lots of tiny kingdoms, then the great Ottoman and Chinese empires to the east, the last place you'd expect to host even one superpower (let alone several of them) in a few centuries' time is Europe.
However, if we take Europe out of the picture, the Islamic nations and China will still be ahead (because most other civilisations were still much less advanced than them), but they will also still be less advanced than Europe in the real world at the same time (because of those internal problems causing their progress to slow).
"At the time, Russia was pretty much a European nation and east of the Urals was territory of various Siberian peoples."
Thanks for clearing that up for us. In fact, maybe these Siberian peoples could work as Majoras' Zemneria? The Sibir Khanate is a superpower perfectly placed in history for these purposes (a century or so after the Black Death). In the real world, it was even destroyed when it was conquered by the Russia (which gets wiped out by the Black Death in Atra Mors). The place is practically calling out to be made use of!
"I thought you'd defeated all my points regarding the Australia map? Indeed, what were the points I made? To be specific, which ones are you referring to?"
I just wanted to keep everyone in the loop in case my points weren't convincing enough. I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I go "Right! We've made all the maps. Let's do this thing!" then you go "Er... Rob, you never changed Australia." then I go "Doh!".
Hopefully I've got all those replies right and my biran i'nst tnruing to msuh...
Majoras: Just done some more reasearch. Though I'm not keen on the West Asian Union myself, because it seems to walk over a lot of interesting cultures in the region, if you're really committed to making a West Asian superpower, perhaps this guy could be involved (just read the intro paragraphs)?