Took the liberty of starting the new thread. Continued from Thread:4662. Enjoy!
Things don't look good for the Hafsids and Zayyanids. Supposing enclaves do manage to survive, they'd probably see their only chance for long-term survival lying in Iberia, so I'd say they'd take the chance and colonize. Then, they'd have to contend with the Moroccans, who'd probably follow suit and start expanding into the Iberian Peninsula, and the Mamluks and Ottomans, who'd no doubt reach Iberia once they were done expanding across the rest of Europe and start grabbing land. Just wondering, did the Hafsids and Zayyanids like each other or were they mutually antagonistic? If they work together, maybe it's conceivable that they could, with difficulty, set up and defend some kind of small nation.
The Zayyanids had a huge war with the Hafsids just before the time of the Terrible Death. At the time the Terrible Death began to spread, the Hafsids, who had been on their back foot for some time, began a huge rebellion and turned the tables against the Zayyanids. I guess you could say they were 'mutually antagonistic'.
I see. If I were a smart Zayyanid general or figure of authority, I wouldn't hang around, if you know what I mean. Under attack from the Hafsids and with the Moroccans still breathing down my neck, I'd look north and see Europe suddenly opened up for colonization by some miracle, perhaps even a sign from Allah, and I think I'd take my last crazy chance at survival and go north. Having actually looked up the Hafsids and Zayyanids, based on territorial maps from the time, it looks like the best place to run would be Iberia, so that's where I'd set up shop. I'm not sure what I should do next, though. Thoughts?
The only reservation I'd have about Iberia is the proximity to Morocco. They can literally see it from their shores and in relatively recent history Iberia was under Muslim rule (at which time it was called Al-Andalus), usually in states that included Morocco (such as the Almoravids and Almohads). The Moroccans might want Iberia back.
The Italian peninsula is another option, but the Mamluks might be going for that if the Ottomans are spreading across eastern Europe. Maybe some place in-between Iberia and Italy is in order? They could sail up to the prosperous city of Genoa and just occupy the place; pick up the ploughs from the fields, the gold from the treasuries and the weapons from the armouries. Hey presto! A ready made city state! Just add people!
Alternatively, they could occupy an island such as Corsica or Sardinia, but I prefer the Genoa idea. But of course, your budding general or official may have different ideas.
You know something, you're totally right. There are literally recently abandoned cities everywhere, it's like a 15-1800s colonial empire's dream come true! If there were colonial empires in the 15-1800s. And you know, you're right, Iberia is too convenient for all involved parties, especially the Moroccans. So yeah, somewhere coastal between Italy and Iberia, maybe falling somewhere in the no man's land which was once France. I'll bet there were plenty of lovely city-states that the Europeans so kindly left behind when they changed addresses to kingdom come, and I wonder if Genoa was the only one the Zayyanids could've tried to take advantage of? Corsica and Sardinia, of course, would make good places to set up a new Zayyanid nation, and the surrounding ocean might make it a little easier to defend.
Though they would be unlikely to be major players, there could be a few Zayyanid or Hafsid-descended city states and minor nations in Europe, at least just after the Terrible Death. It couldn't be a worst time in history for them, though; with the two nations locked in combat, I expect most attempts would end up being too late.
Well, I'm not saying on or the other is going to found the next Roman Empire, but I just want to give them a tiny shot at surviving somewhere, somehow, in some form. After all, isn't that what Atra Mors is all about, giving the guys history (and Europe) screwed over a second chance?
As for Morocco, how much of the Iberian Peninsula do you think they'd be able to hang onto in the face of the incoming "horde" from the east? I mean, Gibraltar, as always, is going to be a hot property for anyone who wants to control trade between the Mediterannean and pretty much the rest of the world, so I can see some great opportunities for conflict there.
I get what you mean with the Hafsids and Zayyanids making it somewhere else. Europe has a rich history of minor city states persisting in the face of much greater powers anyway. A kind of 'Zayyanid (or Hafsid) Diaspora' could be conceivable; daughter states which last longer than the countries themselves.
I wouldn't at all be surprised if Morocco managed to secure the whole peninsula, apart from perhaps the Basque country. Though they weren't as big as the Ottoman or Mamluk empires, they were pretty tough militarily (in the real world, they brought down the Songhai Empire, effectively shattering the whole of west Africa) and pretty stable as well (they still exist today). The time of the Terrible Death was right in the middle of the Reconquista, when powers like Morocco were pitched against Christian powers in Europe for control of the peninsula; it's pretty obvious what will happen if the European factions just disappear.
Morocco's vested interest in the peninsula would make it easier for them to hold on to than the Ottomans or Mamluks. Morocco knew the region well - it was effectively home turf - not to mention their very close proximity to Iberia, which is right at the other end of the Mediterranean for the Ottomans and Mamluks. Then there's diplomacy. If the Ottomans and Mamluks took the lion's share of Europe, they would have a lot of new land and resources which they would struggle to govern at first. Decades, even centuries, would be required for consolidation. In light of this, say, the Ottomans might be very keen to protect Morocco's interests if it meant the Mamluks couldn't get their grubby hands on another piece of Europe.
I'm gonna be done with exams soon, so if anyone else has some time on their hands, maybe we could set up an Atra Mors 6 and get back to this?
Excellent idea! I just finished half an hour ago, so I'll make the thread. Continued on Thread:5053.
What do you think?